Why You Feel Stuck: Ambivalence, the Inner Critic & Change

• 00:00 — Opening reflection: Why change takes courage, compassion, and time.
• 00:30 — Introduction to Janice Florent: A strengths-based counsellor and clinical supervisor with 25 years of experience.
• 01:36 — Janice's work: Supporting counsellors and clients through change, grief, health concerns, and feeling stuck.
• 03:09 — Why rushing change can backfire: Slowing down enough to notice feelings, values, and what is possible today.
• 05:22 — The therapist's righting reflex: How the urge to fix can come from care - and from the therapist's own anxiety.
• 07:23 — Ambivalence in the change process: The normal seesaw between wanting change and fearing it.
• 09:20 — Meeting the inner committee: Listening to the many parts that influence a decision.
• 11:07 — Understanding the inner critic: Why this critical voice may be attempting to protect us.
• 13:46 — Growing the inner mentor: Building access to the compassionate, calm, and clear part of ourselves.
• 14:48 — When choices feel high stakes: How anxiety, perfectionism, and too many options can leave us frozen.
• 17:32 — Values as a way through ambivalence: Finding what matters to you rather than following the shoulds.
• 19:26 — Letting every part have a voice: Listening to the loudest part without allowing it to take over.
• 19:45 — The three emotional regulation systems: Paul Gilbert's red threat, blue drive, and green soothing circles.
• 23:15 — Balancing threat, drive, and soothing: Why wellbeing requires movement between all three systems.
• 24:17 — Regulation is not constant calm: Why energy, activation, rest, and recovery all have a role.
• 26:20 — Small ways to enter the green zone: Simple moments of pause, breath, water, connection, and nature.
• 28:31 — Why soothing is easy to overlook: How productivity culture rewards drive and can make rest feel unimportant.
• 34:17 — Avoiding the threat zone: Why distraction and overdoing can help temporarily but may strengthen avoidance.
• 37:14 — Building tolerance for difficult emotions: Approaching hard feelings gradually while staying within the window of tolerance.
• 42:00 — High achievement and perfectionism: When striving reflects purpose - and when fear, shame, or self-criticism takes over.
• 44:32 — The inner mentor and balanced striving: Cultivating a compassionate voice that supports effort, rest, learning, and repair.
• 50:19 — When a decision feels paralysing: Why regulation comes before problem-solving when the nervous system feels frozen.
• 54:33 — Fear of change: Working with uncertainty, all-or-nothing thinking, and the fear of getting it wrong.
• 59:05 — A strengths-based approach: Seeing the person rather than a problem and noticing capabilities they may overlook.
• 1:07:21 — Barriers and enablers: Learning from obstacles and identifying the strengths that can support the next step.
• 1:09:22 — Recognising readiness for change: Listening for change talk while resisting the urge to rush into action.
• 1:13:19 — Grief and loss in change: Honouring what a person may be giving up, even when the change is beneficial.
• 1:18:17 — Gratitude without performance: How genuine moments of appreciation can create warmth without dismissing what is hard.
• 1:24:54 — Closing reflection: Why asking for help is courageous and therapy welcomes fear, uncertainty, and stuckness.

• 06:41 - Introduction

Laura: Today on The Right Therapist, we're speaking with Janice Florent, a PACFA-registered clinical counsellor and certified supervisor with more than 25 years of experience supporting people through change, grief, addiction, emotional wellbeing, and the complexity of being human. At the heart of her work is the belief that people don't change through judgement, pressure, or being told what'swrong with them. They change when they feel safe, seen, supported, and able to reconnect with their own strengths, values, and wisdom. In this conversation, we'll be exploring what happens when we feel stuck. Why ambivalence is such a normal part of change. How the inner critic can take over, and how a strengths-based approach can help people move forward with more compassion, clarity, and self-trust. Hi, Janice.


Janice: Hi, that was a really nice introduction. Thank you.


Laura: No worries at all. Can you tell us a bit about you and your work, who you work with, what they come with.

• 08:04 - Janice's Work

Janice: Yeah, yeah. So I've moved into private practice this year, which is a really lovely, challenging, scary space to be your own boss, but gee, it's good. Yeah, and I work both with supervisees, so one of my main focuses is around counselling and counsellors becoming the best that they can be, really reflecting on the work, so that we can be really robust in our profession. Yeah, and then with clients, yeah, it is about, as you said, working with change, working with people who get really stuck, because change is hard. Change in life is hard, just dealing with that, you know. Maybe getting a diagnosis of, I don't know, a chronic disease, diabetes, and what does that mean for me now? My life has changed. There might be grief attached to that, and what do I do? My doctor's saying A, B, C, and D, and my diabetes nurse educator is saying E, F, G, and I'm supposed to do all these things, but I'm so scared now. They're the kind of people I like to work with, right? It's that thing of, we don't have to rush anything. What we do need to do is have the space to unpack it, to think about it, to feel it, to just be with no pressure.

• 09:30 - Why Rushing Change Can Backfire

Laura: It's interesting that you say that. We don't have to rush any of it, and I feel like that can be difficult when people are in this uncomfortable space between things, or get getting to understand their current circumstances, and they kind of want to rush, yeah, they want to rush through it. What happens when they try to rush, or if they push through?


Janice: Yeah. Well, and I totally get that, you know, there is, there is that sense of, oh my gosh, if I don't, what's going to happen, and yes, for sure. Cool. Let's honour that at the same time. Let's honour, oh my gosh, if I rush, what's going to happen?


Laura: What is going to happen?


Janice: Yeah, yeah. And it makes me wonder, about if we rush, are we rushing into the wrong decision? If we rush, are we not thinking about our values and what's important to us? Are we not taking the time, it's okay to take a little bit of time. Sure, if it's something like, like I brought up diabetes, I don't know why, it's just in my head today. If we don't take, if we don't at least try, sure, we're going to have complications, but if we go too far, too fast, we might be doing something that's not helpful for us, or that doesn't make sense for us. So, what's possible right now? What's possible today? What's going to be helpful today in this moment? That's what we're on about. That's what I'm on about in counselling.


Laura: It makes me think of this Gestalt theory of change, the paradoxical theory of change, which really calls on us to be where we are right now, to really deepen into what is in this moment, rather than trying to move ourselves forward away from what's happening, but really deepening into our current experience to really understand all of the parts that are up, all of the things that are happening, and from there change can naturally progress rather than kind of skating over the top of how we're feeling and trying to move to a different place when all of those feelings are still going to be there, unintegrated, unpacked, not unpacked, and yeah, that, that isn't actually conducive to change, to rush forward


Janice: No, that's right, and it's, it's really common, you know, for people to come to counselling and want a solution, and fair enough, I would too. I'm paying my money, help me. Yeah, at the same time, when we, when we grab for solutions, we're not paying attention to those emotions, or we're not paying attention to the values, or we're not paying attention to what's really going on here, and I think sometimes even as therapists we make the mistake, yeah, of oh my gosh, this person's here, they're wanting a solution, I'm feeling really stuck myself, and I'm starting to get anxious, and then I might move into, you know, what Bill Miller calls, in Motivational Interviewing, the righting reflex, you know, that fixing thing, and we do it from a really good place. We do it because we care. We do it because we want to help, but we're also doing it to manage our own anxiety, and so that when that happens, we start to throw solutions here. What about this? What about this? What about this? What about this? And that's not helpful, because it's coming from us, not from the client. Yeah, so one of the things for us as a therapist, I think, is to be able to call that out. oops, hang on a second. I think I'm trying to fix it. I think I'm throwing solutions. I think I'm going too fast. Let me just slow myself down. I'm really sorry, and I think that's okay for us to say we're humans, yeah. and let's start again. Okay? What's happening for you right now? Let me take a breath. Would you like a breath? Sure. Okay, let's take a sip of water. In fact, I'm gonna take a sip of water right now, to slow myself down.


Laura: Yeah, perfect example.

Janice: Yeah, yeah

Laura: Yeah, I think that's great. As a therapist, I also notice that when someone is in distress, there is a part of me that thinks, 'What about this? Can we just fix it?' But I actually find that's when the work stalls a bit. Change can't happen in a natural, deep way when we rush to a solution.

• 14:06 - Ambivalence in the Change Process

Janice: Exactly, you know. And when we think about change and the change process, you know, there is a process, and we all go through it. And one of the parts of the change process that I love the most is ambivalence, yeah. That idea, that is, that okay, that we talk about it now. Yeah, cool. So that idea that there's competing things going on, you know, that thing of on the one hand I really need to change. On the other hand, change is scary. On the one hand, though, this is really important. On the other hand, I don't know what to do, but on the one hand, I need to know what to do, and I'vegot to get this done now. But on the other hand, what if I make the wrong decision, and over and over and on we go, and we're up and down, and on that seesaw? Right, that's really distressing, and we call that ambivalence distress, and it's normal. And I think what can happen for some therapists or health practitioners, they rush into the solution, the plan, the goal. I need to change. Great, what is it we're going to change? How are we going to do it? Let's get there. Let's plan. No, let's sit with this thing of ambivalence. Let's spend some time, not just 10 minutes, that could be five sessions, and that's okay, because in that space we get to know each other better, we get to know you, we get to know what's happening, we get to know your values, what's important. Why is this happening?


Laura: And this makes me, you know, on the one hand, on the other hand, it makes me think of how much energy is expended feeling like this and kind of going in this direction and feeling like this and going in this direction, and that there's parts of us that are kind of disagreeing with each other and having a battle inside and just to try and rush towards One Aspect doesn't resolve the ambivalence, doesn't resolve the conflict that we're experiencing,

• 16:11 - The Inner Committee

Janice: Right? You know, well, ambivalence is kind of go stop, go stop, go stop, or go that way, no, no, go this way, no, no, yeah, yeah, and what you're talking about, all those different voices, Bill Miller, or maybe Stephen Rollnick, I think from Motivational Interviewing, they call it the inner committee, right? So you think about it as, okay, here's all, here's all my people on the board table, and they're all me, all parts of me who are part of the committee of change, the one that says no, not doing it. The one that says I don't know, the one that says I'm completely stuck. The one that says you better hurry up, because everything's gonna, everything's just gonna go completely awry if you don't. The one that says you're an idiot, the inner critic, you're just the biggest idiot that ever existed, and this was your fault, and why did you make this happen? And why can't you make up your mind? Then you've got the other part of you, the inner mentor, is saying, 'Hang on a sec, everybody, let's take a beat. We can look at this. It's okay. Let's bring the committee together and have the board meeting, and even then we might come out with some actions, or we might decide, 'Let's think about it some more.' yeah,


Laura: Yeah. It's about understanding and de-identifying from each part. When we're feeling stuck, we think, 'Oh my God, I'm so stuck,' and identify with that so strongly that it feels like who we are. Then we move into another part and think that's who we are. I really like the idea of separating them out: what are all these parts of me thinking? What's their agenda? Where do they want to go? And can I really hear from all of them?

• 18:02 - The Inner Critic as Protector

Janice: Why, why are they saying what they're saying? Why is that important? You know, the inner critic, why is it important for the inner critic to be, to be so critical? Yeah, and we don't want to poo, is that okay for me to say that? We don't want to poo the inner critic, because they have a job to do, and their job is to protect us, isn't that strange? Yeah, yeah, to protect us from feeling hurt, to protect us from others, to protect us sometimes from ourselves, but sometimes actually the inner critic doesn't protect us so well, you know? Sometimes that thing of I can hurt me better than you can hurt me, so I'm gonna hurt me first. Yeah, so helpful.


Laura: Yeah. When working with the inner critic, I really love hearing from it and understanding what it's trying to do. I don't subscribe to the idea that we shut the inner critic down, tell it to fuck off, or try to get rid of it. You can't get rid of it. It's part of you and has a job to do.


Janice: And it does, you know. So, it's understanding why you're being so loud right now. What's happening for you? Are you coming from a space of fear? Do we need to help you to have a rest, maybe, so no more, more dialing it down, as opposed to getting rid of, because the inner critic also helps us to know when there's danger, to know when we're under threat, because that's a human, that's a human condition. Yeah, so we do need to keep that, we don't want it to be so big that we can't move forward, that we're frozen. Yeah, I look at the inner critic as a good friend of the perfectionist, you know. I'm a perfectionist, I'm gonna own that one. So, my inner critic, oh, she's big, she's, she's big, and she can be really mean, yeah. Yeah, but that perfectionist has two sides. Yeah, there's theperson that wants to really strive and move forward and do good things and be great. And then the other side of the perfectionist is, and I can't make mistakes, and this is terrible. And oh my gosh, what are you doing right now, you idiot? That perfectionist side of me is the one that I'll make a mistake and I'll blush when I'm by myself, like I don't have to be in front of anybody to have the shame. Oh my gosh, it's terrible, you know. And as we, as we grow our inner mentor, who's that part of us that can sue, that can see all right. Yeah, it was a mistake, you know. Yeah, we can get over it and try. Let's have some compassion. That's hard work. It's not easy to do that, yeah. But let's have some compassion. Let's try, let's try and be kind to our inner critic to our committee, so that we can find a way forward. We can have a discussion, we can have a debate, as opposed to an argument.

• 21:12 - The Inner Mentor

Laura: Would the term 'inner mentor' be synonymous with Self energy in Internal Family Systems, or with our true self?


Janice: That's a good analogy. The term comes from compassion-focused therapy. In Internal Family Systems, the inner critic might be a firefighter.


Laura: Yes, it can be - a type of protector.

Janice: A type of protector. And the inner mentor is the truest part of us - the part we aspire to be.


Laura:
Compassionate and calm.


Janice: Clear - the part that can make decisions.


Laura: And the one that can hold space for all parts.

Janice: That's it. I like that.

Laura: That's beautiful. Developing access to that is a big part of the work, I imagine.

• 22:16 - When Choices Feel High Stakes

Janice: Is a big part of the work, yeah, and to me it's it's it's a part of the change process, too, you know. So, if I go back to ambivalence, you know, we can experience so many different things. Yes, we experience the inner critic. You idiot, why can't you work this out? But the ambivalence part is that, yes, but so it's an argument in itself, and we're arguing with ourselves.

Yeah, it's what we don't want to do as a therapist is counter that with yes, but so we don't want to do that, yeah, yeah, yes, but oh yes, and is sometimes slows us down, but that idea that when we're in ambivalence that we might, we might react in different ways. There's no one right way to react to ambivalence, you know.

I think about it as perhaps a gate or a fork in the road. Maybe I don't know which. Which one will we go to? A fork in the road, right? Which way am I going to go in this change process? And I'm walking down this path, and I see the signposts, and I see the forks in the road, and suddenly I am completely frozen, and my sympathetic nervous system's going, my heart rate's going, I can feel it right now as I'm going into that space.

All right, that is going, and my brain is starting to flood, and I'm coming offline. It's not because I don't know what to do, it's because I'm starting to feel something, and I'm feeling anxious, and maybe I'm feeling anxious about making a decision because I don't know, or maybe it's that I'm anxious that if I make a decision, is it the right decision? And if I make that decision, can I change my mind? What if I can't change my mind?

Yeah, we might even experience that getting a haircut right. What if I cut my hair short in a pixie and dye it blonde? I mean, it will look disgusting for a start, I my hair will grow back after a long time, so it wasn't the right decision. Okay, and I have to live with that.

Yeah, but certainly when we're making really big decisions, it's normal that we might feel stuck or frozen. Yeah, or maybe we're going to run towards it, and then we stop, and we're like, oh, well, that looks pretty green on the other side, but so does that, and so does that, and so does that, and now it's not so much that I'm stuck, but I have too many choices.


Laura: And I must make the right one.


Janice: And I must make the right one. The perfectionist is coming in because the stakes feel high. Yes.

And how I see that is, wow, you've got all these choices. Let's have a look at what stands out for you. Why, why does that choice stand out for you today? Tomorrow it might be different, and that's okay, because we're looking at what's important.

Well, this one stands out for me because I believe in something, or this one stands out for me because my doctor's been saying something, or this one stands out for me because it's important for me to maintain my relationship, or improve my relationship or look after my kids or be able to live my life, not die tomorrow, whatever it is. Yeah, to not be blonde with pixie cut, my hairdresser would be like, what, Janice, really? So it's, it's okay that we, we take the time, then to look at what's important to you today.

• 26:07 - Values and Ambivalence

Laura: Are you saying that this is the remedy for ambivalence to take the time to feel into what actually matters to me. Okay

Janice: I like the term, the remedy. Yeah, I think it's that place of if we don't explore ambivalence with some curiosity and think about all the unique parts of us, and certainly what's important to me, not what I think is important for you, or what I think is the solution. I can see the solution, sure. And if you take that trajectory, it's going to be amazing, maybe my idea, not yours.

So, when it comes from you and what's important to you, whether it's your family values, your cultural values, your world beliefs, wherever it's come from, your spiritual beliefs, if it comes from you, then it makes sense to you. And then let's look at how we make that work. Yeah, and when we start to tap into this, is important to me. Oh, this is important to me. This is important to me, not this bit. So, let's look at this.

Why? I love the word why. You know, sometimes as therapists, we get taught, don't ask the why question. I'm bringing it back. I like the why question, because it helps us to keep unpacking to be curious and what else and what else you know, so clients will find me asking that, tell me more, I'd like to know more and what else. Yeah, this is interesting. Why is that? And then how are you feeling now about this, so we're getting to something that's real.

Laura: It makes me imagine a client saying, 'Oh, I thought this was what I had to do. Actually, now that I've really felt into what's happening for me and what's important to me, maybe more possibilities have opened up that feel more aligned.

Janice: For sure. Exactly, you know, and I think, yes, there might be things that you have to do, and then there's ways that you can do it. So, what way makes sense to you?

Laura: Yeah

Janice: For example, if you know we have to improve our cardiac fitness. Geez, I wanna. I don't know, my head's going somewhere today. You know, does that mean I have to now start jogging? Seriously, anyone who would. who would find me say jogging, they just laugh. Janice doesn't jog, never joke. Me neither, you know.

Maybe it is they have to walk around the block. Maybe I don't like to do that. What is it that I like to do that is movement, as opposed to say exercise? I don't like the word. Yeah, you know, first always say to exercise physiologists and physios that I know don't put me on an exercise bike, I don't like it. I don't like sitting on the thing, I'd never. I won't do it.

Why don't you? I have an exercise bike in my garage, but don't make me do that. So we talk about movement as an example. Well, what does that mean? Well, maybe it means I put on a song and I boogie, because that's what I like to do. I'm moving, it's something, it's what makes sense to me.

Laura: Yeah

Janice: Yeah. Well, yes, I might walk, or I might. I don't know, I'm gonna say yoga, but I don't do yoga. I might do different things. You started with a grounding exercise with me. Yeah, I might do that in a different way to ground myself. It's still grounding,

Laura: Yeah

Janice: Still calms us down.

Laura: So, finding the option that feels right for the person rather than following the shoulds.

Janice: Exactly - the shoulds.

• 31:55 - Giving Every Part a Voice

Laura: How can we begin to listen to the different parts of ourselves without allowing the loudest or most critical voice to take over? If we feel bombarded by one option, belief, or our inner critic, how can a client be with that in therapy?

• 32:33 - Threat, Drive, and Soothing

Janice: Yeah, that's a really, really good question to me. First of all, I think we need to listen to the inner critic, we need to give that person, that part of us, the space not to take over, for sure, but to have the voice. There's a reason why they're being really loud right now. So, I might ask you that. Hey, your inner critic is, sounding really loud right now. What do they need? What do they need to say right now? Why? and how's that feeling okay? So, let's honour that.

And would it be okay now if we, you know, once we've had the conversation, would it be okay now if we let the inner critic have a rest? Thank you. Thank the inner critic for the job they just did. And is there anyone else, or any other part of us, not anyone else, that's the wrong word, yeah, edit that one, any part of us that wants to also have a say, so it's something like that.

I think the inner critic, if we think of, is it okay to go into the three circles of Paul Gilbert, so the compassion-focused three circles, so they. if you show an image of it, yeah, there's the blue, the red, and the green. The red zone is the threat zone, that's the home of the inner critic, yeah. The threat zone is part of us, we need to have it as humans. We need to recognise threat so that we can fight, flee, freeze, or fawn - whatever we need to do to protect ourselves from the woolly mammoth that's about to come and attack us. Yeah, we need to know that.

The thing about the threat system is that we also need to be able to calm it down when it's taking over, and when the inner critic is taking over, that can take us offline, can take our reasoning offline. The inner critic can also be there in that threat zone because of trauma, they may have grown up being bullied. They may have grown up being traumatized. So this person comes from a place of the world is dangerous, the world is has a lot of threat. So I sit in the threat zone. This is this is normal. We don't poo that either. We really try. Have compassion and understanding for that, and many of our clients come from the threat zone. Yeah, and it's that place where we feel anger, we feel disgust, we might feel sadness, we might feel shame, all of those emotions.

And one thing I want to say about those kinds of emotions, you know, there's sometimes there's that term out there, 'negative emotions'. I don't like that. I think it's emotions that are challenging. All emotions are welcome, they're all part of us. Yeah, so that threat zone is there, it's the red zone. We could move from the threat zone into what we call the blue zone, which is the drive zone. That's the part of us that's where kind of the perfectionist sits, little bit of the inner mentor, but that part of us that strives, if I do, if I'm able, if I get myself going doing things that are important to me, I'm feeling like I'm achieving, I get the dopamine hit, so I'm feeling pleasure, I'm feeling achievement, I'm feeling success, I'm in the drive zone now, and I'm not in the threat zone, so there's a direct link between the two.

Yeah, now the perfectionist in the drive zone. So I'm talking about me right now, I'm doing. I'm going. Yes, this is good. Oh my goodness, here we go. Let's keep going. I've got my mojo going. Oh my gosh, take a break, Janice. Your back's getting sore. No, no, I have to keep going. Take a break, Janice. You need the toilet. No, no, no, I have to keep going. Have to keep going. I have to keep going. Oh my gosh, I'm so crap. I'm not able to keep going. There's the inner critic. I'm back in the threat zone, but I was in the blue zone. I was doing so well. No, you weren't doing very well at all. You were not coping back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

Laura: So we're moving from the red zone to the blue zone.

Janice: The red, to the blue. Yeah, what we really want to try and do is have a bit of the green zone. So, if you imagine it as a triangle, red, blue, green, the green zone is the soothing space that really is where our inner mentor lives. That's the space where we can take the time, we can stop for a moment, we can have the glass of water, we can go to the loo, we can ground, do all of those things that we do, have some fun, do something. Yeah, so we can go from the blue to the green or the red to the green, they're all connected, so it's not about getting rid of any of the zones, it's about being more balanced, and I think we as human beings don't honour the soothing zone as much, we don't do the green as much, I don't know many people who live from the green, they must be the, you know, the very zen people.

Laura: Yeah

Janice: You know, that they're amazing, that they can do that. I'm not one of those people. It

• 37:48 - Regulation Is Not Constant Calm

Laura: It makes me think of nervous system regulation, which is spoken about a lot, and it's great to have that information out there. But our goal isn't constant regulation. That's not how we are as humans.

Janice: That's right, and it can't be. Otherwise we'd be inert. You know, we need that energy, so we do need a little bit of the threat zone to have that. It's also that physical energy we need to move to have the blood going in our muscles, so that our body can actually move. Yeah, we also need to be in the drive zone to be able to do stuff. Yeah, and yes, the green zone is to give us the rest to calm us down. So, when the red zone is too hot, that's when we do take that breath, you know. We, as therapists, we talk a lot about breathing. Yeah, take a breath. What does that mean? Yeah, that space of when we're feeling anxious or when we're feeling a big emotion, maybe we've stopped breathing, as in, we're holding it tight. Yeah, people will ask, how you feeling? Oh, I'm really tight here, and my shoulders are tight. I'm tight, because we're not really taking a deep breath. Is

Laura: Is that a signal that we're probably in the red zone if we're feeling that in our body?

Janice: Definitely. And the inner critic might not be there, but we're in the red zone, we're in that threat zone. Yeah. So, from there, well, what does this need right now? It needs a little bit of calm. How do we do that? We take a breath, and I like to think about as we take a breath out, so we blow first. Now I can take a breath in and just calm it down. I'm in the green zone a little bit. I'm going over there, calming it down, so this comes back online, so I could move from the green into the blue, and think I kind of see it as that.

• 39:59 - Small Practices for the Green Zone

Laura: Do you. I recommend that people have practices in their life to deliberately bring them into the green zone, for example, if they enjoy dancing, if they enjoy sport, if they enjoy meditation, or that they incorporate that deliberately into their daily life.

Janice: Yeah, well, I think it takes practice, so I think it is a deliberate act, isn't it? You know, it's sometimes it's it's hard to come up with something that's that big. I need to join a sport, or I need to do sport, I need to dance. You know, maybe it's about, excuse me, about having a moment, a moment of pause. Yeah, so that might be, you know, if you're someone that's on the computer all day, how about you just take a moment to just close your eyes, rest your eyelids for a moment, then open them, that takes you into the green, yeah, or taking that breath, having a bit of water, it's really easy stuff. Yeah, having a cuppa. All right, I'm going to get up now. I'm going to have a cuppa, that kind of thing, right through to I want to meditate every day, or I would like to incorporate dance, or I want to put on some good music, and stop watching all the crime shows. I don't know.

I do want to ring a friend. I want to have time away from screen, take some time away from the screen. What does that mean? It means looking out in nature, you know.

And nature doesn't have to mean, okay, now I have to go for a hike in the Dandenongs, you know, we're in Melbourne. Let's go to hike in the Dandenongs. It doesn't have to be that. It might actually be go out the front door in my front little garden, there's a beautiful maple tree, and it's changing colours, and it's finally changing colours, looking really pretty.

That's enough. You smiled when I said that. Yeah, and I smile when I say it, because it's a really nice tree. I mean, there's branches that are out there, but and so I look at it and go, needs a trim, but I'm not getting up on a ladder, so that doesn't matter. But I'm looking at the tree, it's just in my front garden. I just had to walk out my front door, that was enough. Yeah, right through to I might go and take a nice walk.

Laura: I like to go outside my front door, and there's lavender in my very tiny little front yard, and there's often bees there, and I just find that just for a few minutes, just watching the bees, yeah, come and go. Yes, absolutely.

Janice: Yeah, and for some people, they might find that really daggy. It's not their thing. Good. What is your thing?

Laura: Yeah

Janice: Your thing might be something completely different. Skateboarding, I don't know, could be anything. Flying a kite, do we do that now? I don't know. Going to the beach, going to a cafe, ringing a friend could be anything to your thing. Reading a book, does it have to be a book that is very deep and meaningful? No. What is it you like reading? You know, friends of mine who are therapists, theylove reading textbooks, therapy books. I like reading a good whodunnit something that relaxes me, that is fun. Yeah, textbooks are good to read, good for when I'm working.

Laura: You mentioned crime shows, yeah, and this is a bit of an aside, but yeah, I am so curious about true crime, in that I couldn't think of anything worse than listening to true crime, but I've, I wonder, because I have friends who find it deeply relaxing, and yeah, I'm so curious about that, I guess, yeah, that's the thing that works for them

Janice: Well. That's right. So, it comes back to what do you value, what interests you, you know? So, if I said to you, Laura, I recommend that you watch True Crime, and you've already told me it's not my thing, and I don't understand it, why would that be helpful? Yeah, but if you said to me, you know, I love looking at bees and my lavender, and I haven't been outside for a while, and I'm feeling really flat, and my curtains are shut, it's cold, it's Melbourne, it's winter. I might suggest you, Laura, you said to me that you really love your lavender, and you love looking at bees, and maybe it's not bee time. What's happening in your garden right now? Does that interest you? And you might say, Janice, my garden does interest me, it's tiny, she said. But I like going out my front door and having a look. Is that something that would be helpful for you? Yeah, yeah, maybe. Okay, let's think about that. So, that's that's kind of a way we look at decision making too. What you said, not what I said. Yeah, what's important to you,

Laura: And it really fits with that slowing right down and feeling what's aligned and what's actually happening here rather than trying to just impose a solution,

Janice: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think that's that's the thing, you know, when we talk about solution-focused therapy, it's not about posing solutions at all, you know. It has a focus, the solution has a focus, but it's about the person in front of you and what do they see, you know? So questions like, well, what is important to you? What do you see as your values? I know I'm repeating that a lot, but this is really, it is really important to go there. Yeah, what is it that you like to do, or was there a time when you felt you could do, and what was happening then, and how did you do that, and what skills and strengths did you use at that time? Skills and strengths. Yeah, so what helped you? And from there, we're going to be listening out for those skills and strengths and solutions. Is that something you want to bring in now with this current problem, or is it something that you think never want to go down there again? That's my past. Okay, so that's how we look at solutions. We find solutions that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. That makes a lot of sense.

• 47:48 - Why We Undervalue Soothing

Laura: Terms of the green zone, why, why is it that we have to kind of deliberately take ourselves there? Why is it that we're not inherently maybe valuing it and giving ourselves that.

Janice: I think that's a really good question, and I wonder about, is it society? I don't know. There is always a pressure, isn't there, to do, to be, to get better, all those things. We have to engage, that's the doing, that's the blue, you know, to not be in this red, we do the green. I wonder if it's about, you know, maybe we don't think enough about this idea that the green zone doesn't have to be huge. This idea of self-care. Oh, well, that means I have to pay for a huge massage, I can't afford it. I have to start a sport, I have to do all this meditation, I have to do all these things. No, self-care is very, very small, and I think I wonder if part of it is that we don't understand what the green zone is, you know? Maybe we don't value it, maybe as someone who's very, very driven. Taking a break isn'tvaluable, and yet, if we don't take a break, we're going to conk out, so we're going to end up in the red.

Laura: Our society really rewards the blue zone, right? Like doing, striving, achieving. Yes. Oh, you're doing so much, you're so focused, you're really achieving. That is really rewarded In the Way our society is, in the way that we view success,

Janice: Exactly. And you're coping so well, you look better than me, you're doing it better, you're being better, you know. We compare ourselves to others, and where does that come from? And that might come from our own selves, that might come from society, it might come from the way we were raised, comes from lots of different places, doesn't it? But we certainly do judge success as something that is. Something to aspire to

Laura: And therefore the green zone can seem unproductive. It may feel as though you're wasting time when you could be working or striving, or that you're being self-indulgent or doing nothing.

Janice: Yes

Laura: That time in the green zone isn't valued in the same way, because it's not productive

Janice: And yet it's incredibly productive. You know, it makes me think about elite sports people. Now, they are not spending 24 hours a day doing their sport. I don't know, a runner, they're not spending 24 hours a day running, they can't. When do they get to eat? When do they get to have a drink? When do they get to stretch their muscles? If they keep running and they don't stop, they're going to end up with muscle tears and back issues and shin splints, and their shoes are going to wear out, so they have to tie their shoelaces. I mean, there's all those sorts of things when we stop to take that break to listen to our bodies. What does it need right now? That's the green zone, you know. I need to fuel my body to be able to run, therefore I have to stop and eat. That's the green zone,

Laura: And rest is actually part of their practice - part of their program.

Janice: Yes - it's recovery and rest. It's scheduled in. And then on top of that, there's, you know, sports psychology, so you go and see your, your therapist to make sure that your head is in the right space, you know, that is the little bit of doing sure goes into the red zone. Yes, because we're looking at things that might be very painful, worrying, concerning. That's okay, and that can take us into the blue.

A good therapist will help us be in the green to be calm enough to explore. Yeah, we call that the window of tolerance. So we try and sit in there and not go too far out, where a person is really hyper and hyper, hyper-aroused, that they can't think, nor do we stay so under where they're, they're hypo-aroused, they're completely catatonic, they just, you know, nothing's happening, they're frozen, you know. We want to stay in that window of tolerance where we stretch it a little bit, but we stay in the green, we help to be in the green. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, but the question of, is it valued, you know, and maybe it isn't valued enough, and maybe that's what therapy can help us to understand that actually the green zone is really important. Sure, we don't want to be in the green zone all the time, we can't be having the green zone helps us with the red, helps us with the blue, they're all connected by arrows, you've got the three circles, and they're all connected. Blue'sconnected to green, red's connected to green, red and blue connected, so they're all connected together.

We just want balance, and for some of us, the green is very, very small, and the red is very, very big, or the blue is very, very big. If we took the time to make the green zone just that tiny bit bigger, it gives us that space to come back to, okay, what do I need?

• 53:34 - Avoiding the Threat Zone

Laura: What kind of things do people do to avoid the red zone?

Janice: That's a good question. I have to think about that one, and in fact, what comes to me is I don't know. I don't know.

Laura: First thing that kind of comes to my mind is that often I think when people find themselves in that stress response or the red zone, we might go to the blue zone and try to do, do, do strive or distract ourselves in some way. Got on my phone, have a drink, yeah, like drink alcohol, and yeah, that we, we try not to be in the red zone, though it keeps happening,

Janice: Yeah, yeah, but

Laura: It sounds like what you're describing is that a really healthy, well-adjusted way to move from the red zone is to move into the green zone,

Janice: Or to understand both, right? I think what. so it sounds like what you're talking about, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that avoidance part, right? That which is normal in anxiety. Yeah, when we fear something, we're going to avoid it, that's normal. And we're going to try and block it in a way, block those or numb those feelings that are really uncomfortable, and that's where substance use can come in, or overeating, or emotional eating, or yes, being on screen and avoiding life, because by doing that, we're not going to feel the pain, that's that's part of the human condition. I, we get, we get that.

Yeah, the problem with that, though, is the more we avoid, the bigger that fear of that pain becomes. So, it's hard, yeah, to not avoid, but we can't just not avoid. I think it's about recognizing what is happening for me. Ah, okay, this is happening. We don't, we don't need to totally unpack the red zone. We just need to know, oh, we're here, okay?

Anxiety is here right now, or fear is here right now, not I am fear, I am anxious. Anxiety is here, or anger is here, or disgust is here, or craving is here. Okay, what do I want to do with that? Maybe I want to take a break. Maybe I do want to do something. I want to, whatever it is, I want to go for that walk, so I'm in the blue. It's okay to be in the blue. It's important. It's important to acknowledge the red. Does that answer your question? Yeah, definitely. Yeah,

• 56:31 - Building Tolerance for Difficult Emotions

Laura: And it also makes me think of when we do find ourselves in the red zone, that idea of that inner mentor being able to, yeah, notice, ah, okay, we've got some difficult feelings coming up, we've got something here that's hard to tolerate, can we actually hear from that, and can we be with it, and what I so often find when difficult emotions or hard to tolerate emotions are coming up for people that there's the emotion, and then there's also the fear and aversion to that emotion, and That it feels very big, and like it might completely swamp us, and we need to kind of hold it at a distance, and we get a little bit frozen.

But if we can build, and therapy is obviously so great for this, if we can build our connection and our ability to hold to those difficult emotions, and our just kind of increase our tolerance of them, like you were saying, like increase that window of tolerance with them, that they become not only less scary to us, but they actually become far more tolerable and easy to be with.

Janice: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it makes me think about people that might say, "Oh, so do you mean I come to therapy and have to feel all my feelings, and you're going to make me feel them for the 55 minutes I'm here with you? No, that's not helpful, and that's actually not healthy. Might be a bit dangerous. Yeah, but the idea is to have those moments of we're feeling the feeling. Let's then also use the green zone to calm ourselves down a little bit to be able to then be curious about this feeling, so sure we might externalize it for a bit, you know, where we talk about the feeling in a curious way.

We might, you know, I'm looking, I'm looking at the table here, so we put on the table and let's unpack this thing that is anger. Let's unpack that. What is it? What does that mean? What's going on there? What is it about? Where's it coming from? Okay, and we might come back into. and where is that feeling in your body? Maybe we might do that. Is that okay to go there? It's. I'm gonna make some. it's here. And what's that feeling like? It's really hot. Is there anything else about that? It's hard, and it's like a ball of fire, and what does that fire need right now? I need some water.

Okay, I want to stop. Okay. Good. Well done. Thank you for telling me that. Let's stop. Let's take that break. Let's give anger a rest, and let's go into the green zone. What will help you to go in the green zone right now? What do you need? I need that water. I just need quiet. I need you to stop talking, Janice. Okay

Laura: And so we're learning to move towards the difficult feelings, but in a way that's tolerable, and like titrating that, like moving towards it, moving back into regulating ourselves, calming and soothing, touching on it, and moving back again.

Janice: And we do it to. Together, and I think it's not about having this great catharsis, where we're going to be having our wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the huge tears, and wow, it doesn't have to be that. In fact, therapy sometimes is a little blip of feeling, and that's good. Well done, good work. You felt a little bit of something, whatever that was, and you were able to talk about it a little bit. Well done.

Laura: Yeah

Janice: Good job. Great session. Come back next week. Yeah, you know, and sometimes, yes, the, the tears come out, the emotions come out, you know. We'll sit there with that client when that happens, and help them to feel it, but also help them to contain it. That's our job too, isn't it? To slow it down. Let's take a breath. Okay? What do you need right now?

Laura: Yeah

Janice: Yeah, let's take a break. Change the subject if that's helpful, that kind of thing. So we regulate together, yeah, so that we can keep moving in thinking about unpacking what's happening. Where did that come from?

• 1:02:36 - High Achievement and Perfectionism

Laura: Thinking about people who are extremely driven, high achievers, constantly striving and often very successful: what might be behind that for some people, and what can the cost be?

Janice: That's a really, really good question. It's a big one, isn't it? I think about it as firstly, where did that come from, this perfectionist part, this striving part, and it might have come from a really good place, or it might have come from you better, or else maybe it came from a trauma space, maybe it's innate in that person that they were born that way to strive. I also wonder about behind that, is there a fear of failure, or a fear of not being successful, or a skewed idea of I'm successful, but why aren't I happy? You know, I got there, but okay, you got there. Wow, fantastic. Let's, let's champion that. Amazing, how are you doing that? And also, what else in your life are there parts of you that you're not enjoying, or parts of you that you miss, parts of your life that you miss having all this success? Success is good, it is, and so is not being so successful, and so is other stuff.

So, I guess my question would be, I'm wondering about what's stopping you from looking at pleasure, or things that make you happy, or things that give you joy. Do you have moments of joy. Tell me more about that. Do you struggle to stop? Why?

And sometimes what can come up is the should, but I should. I should do this. I should be better. I should always be achieving that. Should to me is the alarm bell. Ding, ding, ding. Should comes with judgement. You're not good enough. Your inner critic is, the perfectionist, and the inner critic, best friends, and the inner critic, their champion, championing, going, yeah, you go for it, you, you idiot, you go for it, you make sure you're successful, you go for it, not helpful, as opposed to the inner mentor, who might be. Yay, go for it. You're doing really well. Take a break.

• 1:05:08 - The Inner Mentor and Balanced Striving

Laura: It sounds like the inner mentor is more balanced.

Janice: Yeah, yeah. And you know it's. and that's something to cultivate. It's not something we just go. I'm going to have my inner mentor. I'm going to have my inner mentor now. Yeah, good luck. Yeah, imagine if we..

Laura: Do that, we're just developing another part of us. We are sitting more in the middle rather than connecting deeply,

Janice: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so I do wonder behind that striver. No, this perfectionist. Let me rephrase. Let me completely rephrase. The perfectionist is that person, I think, and I wonder about is the person that struggles to fail, struggles to make mistakes, struggles to deal with making mistakes, right? So that person, that's me, that is in the corner, blushing by myself. Yeah, and then struggle to forgive myself.

You idiot, that person, yeah, and so behind that perfectionist is that, whereas the striver is sort of a different, different term, Brene Brown talks about that, I think you know the striver is the person that wants to work on being as good as they can be, while also knowing they're flawed, we make mistakes, but we learn from them.

You know, that's what reflective practice is all about. As counsellors, yeah, we make mistakes, we come to supervision, we talk about it. Oh my gosh, you won't believe what I did in my last session, and I was completely stuck, and I didn't know, and I couldn't get my words out, and everything was all wrong, and we unpack that, we reflect upon it, so we get better at what we do, so we strive, as opposed to be perfect.

Laura: Yeah, it's such a. it's almost a subtle, but, but really important difference, that there is nothing wrong with striving and achieving and working hard and putting our heart and soul and mind into something,

Janice: Yeah.

Laura: And I think it's important to know where we're coming from when we're doing it, yeah, and why we're doing it. Well,

Janice: Exactly. So it's it's picking up on the should, you know, and when we hear the should, it's like, oh, there's the should again. Okay, right. But it's okay. There's the should. Let me rephrase that for myself. What do I want to be doing? What do I feel I need to be doing? What's important for me to be doing right now?

Laura: And is there another part of me screaming for rest and compassion? Is there an inner war between the part that's achieving and the part that's saying, 'Oh my God, we can't keep doing this'?

Janice: And that part of me that has no voice at all. Let's hear from them right now. What is that voice saying? Is it okay to give them a go? So, okay, let's let's unpack. I want to hear, tell me more about this screaming. What are you screaming about? I want my turn. Okay, let's have your turn. Is that okay? That this part of you has the turn now.

We might ask the others, you know, at the, in the, inner committee, is it okay inner committee if this part has their turn now to speak? It's the part of the agenda they can speak to, and let's invite that, you know, we can have the others have their opinions on it all, you know. It does sound like there's lots of people at the table, and that's okay, and sometimes there's not, you know, but it's listening out for those little clues.

The should is that thing that has judgement behind it, the want or the need, or the I'd like to is where the change starts to come in, where the values come in where what's important to me comes in, or what I think might be important. I'd like to try.

Laura: So this inner mentor - this deeper, truer part of us - helps us connect with what's actually important rather than what we've come to believe we should do.

Janice: Yeah. I see the 'should' as a little alarm bell. Of course, some shoulds reflect shared morals - we shouldn't kill people or rob a bank. Those aren't the shoulds I'm talking about. But when I think it'swhen it comes to that, should have I should be better, I should be coping, I should be feeling my emotions, but I feel nothing. Hmm, you know, I should be a better client. What does that mean? And I might ask that I might ask the client themselves, who just said to me, I should be a better client. Well, what does that mean? What does that look like? If you were a better client, what would I be seeing that's different right now? Is there something you want me to be telling you about what you're like as a client, maybe it's maybe they're they're wanting at the moment some validation, some athank you, you know, some gratitude for how hard they're working in session.

Laura: Yeah

• 1:10:55 - When a Decision Feels Paralysing

Laura: What can a client do, or even someone who's listening right now when they're feeling paralyzed about a decision or afraid of making the wrong choice, if they're finding themselves at that fork in the road and they're feeling really paralyzed, what Can They do?

Janice: Yeah, okay. To me, the first thing we do is work on that sense of frozen, so let's bring the parasympathetic nervous system back online, so we soothe first, so let's learn how to do that. What will be helpful?

You started us with a little grounding exercise, and you were talking about the feet on the floor, and you talked about roots going into the ground. I had to steal that one, that's a good one, you know, and we might stop like that, you know. We might before we even start problem solving. It might be, you know, Laura, can I invite you to maybe just take a moment? Would that be okay? Feel your feet on the floor for a moment and do whatever kind of grounding exercise that takes our fancy, or that the client might like, or that the client likes to do. Maybe we've taught them something specific.

You don't like the one that you did. You might invite me, Janice. Would you like to right now? Put your feet on the floor, feel the roots, feel yourself back in the chair. Take a breath.

Laura: So it sounds like the first step isn't about the decision at all. It's about getting into a more embodied, regulated place.

Janice: Let's go there, because once we're there, then we can think. Now, that doesn't mean we make a decision.

Laura: So what comes next once we're regulated?

Janice: Yeah, so then the next part is, let's talk about that paralysis. You know what's happening for you while I'm looking at the fork in the road, and whatever it is. And tell me more about that. What if I make the wrong decision? What if you do what's the worst thing about that, what's the best thing about that. So we just keep unpacking, you know. Tell me more about this decision versus this decision. Why does this decision look interesting to you? Why does this decision not look interesting? Well, this one is the one that you're thinking, oh yuck. Tell me more about why it's yuck. Let's go there. Let's not ignore it. It's yuck, because a, b, c, and d. Ah, okay. We're learning something here.

So, why is it more attractive? This one. So, this is how we're doing ambivalence. We're doing the yes, no, the go, no, go forward. We're looking at the pros and cons, if you like the value of change, the value of not changing. You've got to look at both sides. What if I stay the same? Okay, what if you do stay the same? What's the benefit of that, and what's the cost of that? And then what if I change? What's the benefit of that, and what's the cost of that?

And then we can unpack the whole thing, andhave a look at it. So, you've said here that the benefit of staying the same is I feel safe, I know what I'm doing, I understand feeling sick, I get it. The cost of that is I'm going to get worse. My partner'sgoing to be angry with me. My doctor won't be happy, okay. So we see all of those, and then the cost and benefits of change, and we'll unpack each one. So, tell me more about this idea of I'mgonna feel sicker. What does that mean? Well, tell me more about what's happening with your partner. Maybe we end up having a session on relationship, and we're going down a whole other path before we even get to the decision.

Laura: Yeah

Janice: Yeah. So we keep unpacking pros and cons, if you like, that's one part, and we're unpacking again what's important out of all of that, and then what's possible now. Are you ready to do that now? No. Okay. What will help you to be ready? I don't know. Let's work on that.

• 1:15:09 - Fear of Change

Laura: Can you tell me a bit about the fear of changing and what, what is, what is that about? How does that show up?

Janice: How does it show up? It can often show up as I don't know, that's that can be one of the first things. The I don't know can be a fear response. It can be a I don't want to talk about it right now. It's a barrier, like a boundary. That's what I'm looking for. It's a boundary. I don't want to go there. It could be a complete I actually don't know. I have no idea. I'm so confused. Yeah, which is a great starting point. Let's talk about the confusion. Let's talk about what it's like not to know. Let's talk about something else. Shall we change the subject? Yeah, while still holding that particular subject of change in mind. Yeah, Yeah, maybe there's also that fear of making the mistake or being judged doing the wrong thing. What if it doesn't work for me? You know, what if it's, it's completely, it's just completely wrong. What if it doesn't work?

Laura: It makes me, I say that a lot, so I'm going to rephrase it. There's a bit of I have to get this right in there, and that the stakes are very high when making a decision, maybe a big decision or it may be a small decision, and this is very familiar to me that I have to get it right, and I think that speaks to something underneath that, like a kind of foundational feeling, right, of like I'm not safe, and therefore I have to get everything perfect out Here, Have to make the right decision, because otherwise I'm not going to be okay,

Janice: Yeah, yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head, I really do, and that to me is where the all-or-nothing thinking comes in, the black-and-white thinking, you know, that's where the either or, and it's easy for me to say it's not about either or, it's about the grey, so sometimes it's, it's about if this particular decision is difficult. Let's take steps backwards. What else is going on before we make this decision? Let's keep unpacking it. Let's keep unpacking these pros and cons, and understanding them better, because it's not just making a list of pros and cons, it's unpacking each one, and then in each one there's a pro and con, and we keep going, and we keep going, and we keep going. Yeah, and I think it's also okay, you know, when we're talking about change, to maybe make have small what I call experiments try something, and then come back, and let's unpack what it was like, and if it didn't work, let's unpack why, as scientists, and be curious, and that's okay, and if it did work, why, and what was that about, and do you want to do more of that or less of that before you make the big decision,

Laura: So, smaller steps - experimenting?

Janice: Experimenting a little bit, you know. Yes, things can be dire, so you might need to make a decision, you might need to make it quickly. Okay, so we might need to, I don't want to say hurry the process, but I don't want to ignore the urgency either, so it's, but it still comes back, and I'm going to do a bad thing. I'm arguing with myself here, so it does come back to what's doable right now. What's important today? Okay, tomorrow might be a different decision, but today, in this very moment, what's important, and then what's doable? Are you ready to do it? Do you have what you need to do it? Yeah, and let's talk about that. And then tomorrow might be a different part of that decision. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah,

Laura: Yeah, for sure.

Janice: Yeah,

• 1:19:41 - A Strengths-Based Approach

Laura: Um you work in a strength-based way. What does that actually mean in practice? What would that look like and feel like for a client?

Janice: Yeah. It's a way of being, I think, and it's a way of listening, and it's a way of asking questions too. So, as a way of being, it means that I come into a session with you. I value you for who you are. I'm interested in who you are. I'm interested in what you believe in, what you like, what you don't like, what you, you know, what makes you happy, what makes you sad, all of those things. I'm interested in that, you as your unique person. I'm not interested in you as a problem to solve. That's not my thing, that's not my bag, that's not strengths based.

Yeah, so as I'm interested in you, I'm also listening out for your skills and strengths that you might not call them those things, you know, like for example, Laura, you, when we, as we talked before, you started us with a grounding exercise to calm us both down to get ready for the space, you know, so I see that as one of your strengths of helping the person with you to, to calm themselves down, to give themselves space. So I see that as really respectful. That's a strength, that's a value.

You know, you're nodding at me right now, so it's. it's. there's something that's resonating for you.

Laura: Yeah, it's interesting to think of, and you know, when I was thinking of myself in that example, but also when I'm with clients that I can see based on what they're describing to me, there's so many attributes and strengths that I can see that they're not really aware of, because it's just kind of part of how they operate, but it's not in their conscious awareness.

Janice: Yeah, yeah, so I might draw on some of those and pull them out and see if the client reacts to them. You know, sometimes clients will say, no, no, that's not that's not me, that's not how I am. I'm not going to push the point and argue with them: 'Yes, it is how you are. You're really good at grounding, Laura.' I'm not going to do that, right, but I might be curious about why the rejection. Maybe it'smy language, maybe I'm being too strong in it. You know that kind of idea of, and I wouldn't use this in session, but as an example of rather than talking about being happy, talking about being less depressed, less sad might be more tolerable than look for happiness, because happiness might not be available at all.

Laura: Again, it's too great a leap. It's

Janice: Too great a leap. Yeah, yeah, but it is. It is listening up for those attributes and using them in a way that supports that person and where they want to be. You know, you told me you're really interested in your garden and lavender and bees. Is that something that would help you with the problem you're trying to solve. So, tell me more about gardening. Why do you like that? Ah, so I hear you're really good with, I don't know, understanding pollen. I have no idea, right. Um, what photosynthesis is. You sound like you're a bit of a scientist. I'm making this up as I go along here. Yeah, so there's something that's something that interests you, that's a skill and a strength. So, tell me about your gardening. How do you do it? How do you, how do you make sure that your lavender actually flowers? How do you do that? Ah, so you, or you're a researcher, ask, okay? So you go on to, I don't know, go on to AI and have a look at how do I make my lab, and you're one of those people. Okay, great. So, this is something that you do, you have a skill. Okay, so that's what I'm drawing on. I know it's a terrible example, but so I'm listening out for those and I'm reflecting them back. So, that's the strengths-based approach.

Yeah, what it isn't is the whole silver lining business that is not strengths based at all, that term, well, at least you have your health, well, at least you have no, no, no, can I put a big fat no there, we're not looking at silver linings at all, at all, which might sound strange as a strengths-based approach.


Laura: No, but it also, it doesn't sound strange, because I think that's my worst nightmare as a client is just trying to tell me what's right all the time, but it sounds like you're in a strengths-based approach, you're looking for really genuine, accurate strengths you can see in the client, and kind of reflecting them back to them, and being how they fit, and yeah, does it resonate for them, and can they own that, and if not, exactly why, and can we tweak it, but yeah. Reflecting back what you see,

Janice: Yes, exactly, and people might not be able to, or feel comfortable to talk about their strengths, and that's okay, that might not be culturally okay for them, for whatever reason, whatever part of their, their culture, I'm talking culture broad, yeah, you know, in my family that's something we do. We talk about how good we are. We also talk about how crap we are. We also insult each other a lot. Yeah, and we, we will give some faint praise if you're lucky. But that's not in everybody's culture, and that's okay too. So it's not necessarily, it's also not about me forcing you to talk about your strengths. It's just I'm going to reflect something back that I see, which also means I'm going to reflect back struggles, because a strengths-based approach doesn't ignore struggles, you know. And there's the opposite term, weakness, so we, we don't necessarily look at it as weakness, but as opportunities,

Laura: And guess what, we call it a growing edge, a

Janice: Growing edge. There you go. Yeah, so we talk about that. How we stretch ourselves a little bit, you know. So we have to look at the challenges, we have to look at the struggles, we have to look at the, you know, the failures. If you want to use that language, if the person wants to use that language, we have to look at that to understand, and as we're looking at that, I'm also listening out for how is it you're able to do that, because that's a strength, and how is it you're able to be now, you're being a little bit objective, you're looking at it out here, as opposed to I am crap. This is crap. Ah, how are you doing that? I'm really curious about that.

And I think the other thing about the strengths-based approach, and Elliot Connie, who is one of the gurus in Solution-Focused Brief Therapy, he talks about your best hope, and asking the client, what's your best hope, as opposed to what's my best hope for you, it's what's your best hope, which might be completely different to what I'm thinking, and from that we can draw, so tell me more about this best hope, and what's possible, and what skills and strengths might you use to get there, or to get a little bit there?

Laura: I like that.

Janice: I love that too. It's such a good question. He's very clever. He's very clever. It's a really nice one,

Laura: And I imagine I know in myself and in my work with clients, And When we, that engaging the best hope in some ways can also bring forth the things that are getting in the way of that, or the reasons why we believe, yeah, that's my best hope, but I know I can't have it, and that then there's something,

• 1:27:57 - Barriers and Enablers

Janice: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so we talk about it as like barriers and enablers, that's another term, or obstacles. What's getting in the way, you know, which might be the, you know, the barrier, the gate in front of the signposts, you know. So we look at those obstacles, and we also look at the enablers, you know. I like to think of the analogy of, oh gosh, and we live in Victoria, potholes, right? We'redriving along pothole bugger, we're driving along. I forgot about that pothole. Okay, we're driving along pothole. I remembered. oh my gosh, hang on, and I've just slammed my brakes on, not safe. I remember that street has a pothole. I'm going to take a different street. So we're starting to learn the obstacles that get in our way, and rather than go through them, we're going to go around them, or we're going to change direction, because we're learning. We're learning about it, that's all. And then there are days where we forget, we go down that street. Oh, they still haven't fixed that pothole. Yeah, so we're just learning. So, learning those obstacles and understanding them is also a strength and skill.

Laura: That sounds like a compassionate idea.

Janice: I really like that. You know, it's just not black and white. It's just not. well, I better learn that pothole, and I better get it right, and I better not do that again. I better learn how to go around it. Well, yeah, sure. Because going to help you, and it's going to help your car, I think. It's more about how important is it for you to learn about that. Actually, it's pretty important. Why? Because, okay, so let'slearn about this pothole. Let's learn about what's getting in the way, and then let's work out how we go around it, or how we change direction. And then, when you're ready, we'll actually change direction.

Laura: Yeah,

Janice: Yeah. So, just because we've learned about it doesn't mean we're doing it.

• 1:29:58 - Recognising Readiness for Change

Laura: How do you know when someone is ready to make a decision?

Janice: Yeah. You're going to hear different language. You'll hear what Bill Miller calls change talk, as distinct from sustain talk in Motivational Interviewing: 'Yeah, but it's too hard.' I'm not sure, nothing works. And then you're going to hear the change talk, which is I really need this. I'm ready to. I'd like to try. This is important. I've really got to do this. It's time. You're going to hear those kind of things, and the important thing is they're not for us to rush in. Yeah, you're saying it's time. Let's do it. It's. I'm hearing you, that you're saying this is really important to you, that you need to do this, and it's time.

Okay, so let's look at what a plan might look like, and then we make the plan, and in that plan, what's going to help you again, the barriers and enablers, or the obstacles, what's going to help this plan to go forward, what's going to get in the way, so you plan it, and then you do it as an experiment. That's how I like it to think about it.

Laura: How does a person know when they're ready to make a decision?

Janice: And only they can know. How do you know when, when you're ready to make a decision? What do you notice in yourself?

Laura: I guess it becomes clearer: the ambivalent go-stop energy shifts more towards 'go', usually after I've explored and soothed the 'stop'. Sometimes the dilemma becomes so heightened that something has to give and a decision is made. When I'm ambivalent I'm stuck between go and stop, but eventually it becomes intolerable and one option feels obvious - as though the way has cleared.

Janice: Yeah, exactly. And what I heard you talk about there was, and everyone does it differently, right? So there is no one right answer. And for you, sometimes it's about being, being a bit grounded, being soothed, and then feeling that sense of heightened that just pushes you there, it takes you there. This is where I need to be, and I felt you did this. I said, there's something about your energy comeshere. Yeah, I know for me it's about me being calm in my belly. First of all, something happens here, and then I get excited, that's what I feel, and it's. I'm vibed, and it feels. yeah, yeah. All right, it'salmost like, okay, because

Laura: There's something else you reminded me of: when I'm close to being ready to make the decision, I start to fear losing that option. My fear of change is overtaken by the fear of not having it. I start to realise that it's what I really want, even though I still have so much fear about the change.

• 1:33:55 - Grief and Loss in Change

Janice: Yeah, and that's still part of ambivalence, you know, so the ambivalent, that's the ambivalence you're talking about where the closer we move to what we want, the more we can see it's either attractive or not attractive. So we start to move away. Yeah, or as we're moving, if we're moving and we keep moving, it's the right decision for us right now. We've moved out of ambivalence into, you know, preparation to change. Yeah, but when we're still in ambivalence, we move away from something that looks like our desired outcome, if you like, and we can look at it, and we go, I feel safer, yeah, that still looks really good, and as I come in closer, no, and I come back, yeah, it's like that, yeah, that's the, that's the go, no, no, go, go, no, go, go, go, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, and that'snormal. So, that means you're still in ambivalence, you're still working on this.

Why are you moving away, and what's this part that you're, you're worried about losing? So, let's go there now. We need to look at the grief. If, because that's another part we haven't talked about, that when we make a change there is a loss. Let's not pretend there isn't, because there is, and we might need to grieve that loss, you know. Maybe for someone, for example, who might be giving up a substance, maybe that's part of it, you know.

I need to give up drinking or something, and because I know it's not good for me, I know it's making me sick, etc. etc. etc. I've lost my license, blah blah. I'm about to lose my relationship, etc. But this bottle called alcohol has been a friend, has helped me to cope, has helped me to be numb, because that's what I need to feel. I don't want to feel these emotions, and now I have to give up this friend, and it's not for us to be saying, but that's good for you, it'll be good for you. Well, hang on a second, tell me about this friend, and how they, you value this friend, and what you don't value about this friend anymore, and even though you don't value this friend anymore, the grief that goes behind saying goodbye, and the regrets, and all of that stuff. Let's honour that grief.

Laura: It's not black-and-white thinking. With dependency or addiction, the behaviour has been necessary and has served the person, potentially for a long time. Letting go means giving up something that has provided a benefit and support.

Janice: Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think any change comes with grief, you know, even if it's a good change or it's a fun change, or whatever, you know, I'm, I don't know, moving to a different suburb and a better house and interstate, and where there's sunshine. Yeah, right. But that's great, but I'm going to miss this part. What am I going to miss about? Well, I am, because, okay. And is that tolerable for me right now? Well, actually, I have no choice, because I have a new job over there. So, what's going to help me to cope with this? The fact that I'm just making, as I'm going along here, you know, I have a new job in Sydney, and so I need to move, but my goodness, I'm going to miss Melbourne, but I want this job,

Laura: Yeah


Janice: Which is more important right now, Melbourne or the job, actually the job, so let's grieve Melbourne and let's make the move, some people might be completely frozen with that. I really want this job, but this community I have is so important.

Laura: Do you think the dilemma becomes more difficult if we don't acknowledge and grieve the loss?

Janice: I do, I do, and I think that's where counselling comes in, that we take the time to feel those feelings, to acknowledge the grief. That's where we don't rush the change decision. That's where we do sit and honour ambivalence, and ambivalence distress, and we take that time. Yeah, we don't push the client to take the time, we don't rush it either. Yeah, we have to try and find a balance between us to acknowledge it a little bit, you know, and maybe even do a little bit of both, a little bit of change and a little bit of ambivalence. You can sit in both - changing something else while remainingambivalent about this other decision.

Laura: Yeah

Janice: Yeah, and practice change until this big one can get dealt with.

Laura: I like that.

Janice: Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:39 - Gratitude Without Performance

Laura: You speak about gratitude. How can gratitude be helpful without becoming forced, performative, or dismissive of what's hard?

Janice: Yeah, I like that one. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, good, really, really good question. You know, people often talk about gratitude journals and all that stuff. For some people, that's really helpful. Great, for some people it feels like a chore. If it's a chore, it's not helpful. That's that's the bottom line. Yeah, so I look at gratitude as having moments of, yeah, maybe it is helpful to have a look at and ask the question, what am I grateful for today? If I don't feel like answering that question, maybe I don't ask that question today, but gratitude to me is I think, I think the easiest way to do gratitude is to say thank you. I think it's that there's something about being thanked that feels good, right? So being the person to say thank you gives so much, but it also gives us too, so it feeds us by saying thank you.

Laura: What happens when we can really feel gratitude? What is it, and why would we bring it in?

Janice: It feels warm. Yeah, so if someone has done something nice for us, or if we smile at someone and they're smiling back, we're feeling something here. Yeah, right now you're smiling at me a little, and I'm feeling quite warm here, and I'm touching my heart. So you're touching my heart. Yeah, I can see it in your eyes, you're touching my heart, and I feel really grateful for that, and I do genuinely feel really grateful for that. It's making me feel wanted, it's making me feel valid, you know. So I'm noticing that, so you know, if I was to be, you know, what's the word I'm looking for? If I was to be explicit about that, I'd say, you know, Laura, thank you, you're making me feel really good right now. Yeah, simple as that. And then you're smiling back, and so, how's that making you feel? It's a nice feeling, like, yeah.

And yeah, it's warm and fuzzy and all of that, but there's something about gratitude that helps us to look at the nice things in the world, you know. I talked about my tree in the front yard earlier, and yeah, I can look at it and go, wow, it's good. It's look at it, science, nature, autumn, it's red leaves that are going a bit orange, and all these things, or I could look at it as, wow, cool. It'sreally nice that I have that tree there. That makes me feel good. I'm grateful for it, and I feel that warmth in the moment, and in that moment I'm giving myself the space to be in the green zone. How's that linking that together?

Yeah, there's also something about there's something about the thank you that I find really important that you know when people give us something and we say, oh no, no, no, you didn't have to do that, right? I get that it's being modest and it's, you know, not wanting to be greedy at the same time, I wonder about is that rejecting the person's gift, whatever it is, whether it was a glass of water or a brand-new car or something, you know, but that act of saying thank you is accepting that person's offering to us, so therefore we're honouring who they are, you know. So I like to thank a person for working with me, not just because it's polite, but because they worked hard and they came and they brought it. So why wouldn't I say thank you? How stupid of me not to, you know? Yeah, not good for business, sure, but it's because I feel it, so that's the thing about gratitude too, that it's got to be real. If we're not feeling it, don't say it. I mean, you can say it to be polite, but if you're not feeling it, okay?

Laura: We don't need to force ourselves to perform it.

Janice: No. But having that moment of gratitude, it's another way of doing mindfulness. There's some really beautiful little YouTubes, they go for like a minute. There's one, there's one I really love, I can't remember the name of the person, but it's a two minute gratitude thing, and all it is having that quiet and then going into that space of so what are you grateful for right now and just think about that and say thank you for that thing or that person. And just feel it, and thank you. I'm grateful, and that's it. That's all it is.

Laura: It feels like a very simple way to enter the green zone - that little rest.

Janice: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it could be, you know, even that thing of I really enjoyed that sandwich. Yay

Laura: Yeah

Janice: That's gratitude, right? It doesn't have to necessarily have the words I am grateful for.

Laura: Yeah

Janice: Well, thank you. It just might be noticing something that was really good. Check out that sunshine. Cool.

Laura: Yeah


Janice: You know, Venus and Jupiter were apparently in line this week. Mum pointed it out to me, and we saw it. It's really cool. That's it. Moment of joy.

Laura: Yeah, I love that.

Janice: Yeah, me too.

• 1:46:16 - Closing Reflection

Laura: Before we finish, is there anything else you'd like to add?

Janice: Um, no, I don't think so. I think it's, it's more, you know, see, I think what I'd like to tell people is, you know, see, counselling as a space of being really brave, you know, it is courageous to ask for help. It's okay, there's nothing wrong with you, there's nothing wrong with the fact that you're feeling scared or stuck. That's brilliant. Let's go there and let's unpack it with curiosity, with compassion, with care, and no rushing, and absolutely no judgement. Whatever you bring, we welcome, because it's uniquely you.

Laura: Thanks so much, Janice.

Janice: You're welcome. Thank you.

Laura: Pleasure.