Why Narcissistic Relationships Feel So Confusing (Codependency, Gaslighting & Trauma Bonds)

• 00:00 - Nobody Is a Narcissist: Traits, Not Labels: Rjurik opens with a more humane frame: people are not diagnoses. We all have traits, and threat can bring narcissistic defences to the surface.
• 00:24 - Meet Rjurik Davidson: Laura introduces Rjurik, an integrative psychotherapist with interests in personality disorders, difficult relationships, institutional abuse, and men's mental health.
• 00:58 - Is the Word 'Narcissist' Overused?: Why online conversations can flatten a complex spectrum into a label, and the three Es often associated with narcissistic traits: empathy difficulties, entitlement, and exploitation.
• 04:43 - Narcissistic Defences and the Spectrum: How context, danger, and emotional threat can make any of us more self-focused - without turning a person into a fixed category.
• 07:51 - Why We Judge Narcissism So Harshly: Rjurik explores splitting, projection, and the understandable pain that can sit beneath the urge to divide people into 'all good' and 'all bad'.
• 10:38 - The Narcissism-Codependency Dynamic: Why people with narcissistic and codependent traits can form a powerful but unequal fit, with care flowing in one direction and power accumulating in the other.
• 13:32 - Healthy Give-and-Take vs a One-Way Flow: A healthy relationship can renegotiate who gives and receives. A rigid dynamic cannot - and the person with less power may lose open ways to ask for what they need.
• 15:34 - Gaslighting, Confusion and Self-Abandonment: How devaluation, control, and repeated challenges to reality can disconnect someone from emotion, boundaries, and a stable sense of self.
• 21:25 - Recovery Means Reclaiming the Self: Therapy as a return to inner experience: noticing hurt and anger, understanding what those emotions are communicating, and rebuilding assertive boundaries.
• 25:18 - When Empathy Becomes Self-Abandonment
• Laura and Rjurik examine spiritual bypassing - moving too quickly into understanding the other person while dismissing your own pain and protective responses.
• 28:29 - Stepping Out of the Power Struggle: Why you do not need a perfect argument to honour your reality. Sometimes 'that does not feel true for me' is a more powerful boundary than trying to win the facts.
• 30:46 - Perfectionism, Shame and Insecure Love: The connection between narcissistic traits and the need to appear perfect, and how criticism can expose deep shame formed through conditional or insecure early love.
• 32:41 - How Childhood Attachment Shapes Adult Patterns: When children must choose attachment over authenticity, they may learn to perform for love, prove their specialness, or work endlessly to earn care.
• 36:04 - Why Codependence Can Feel Like Chemistry: How familiar attachment wounds can create intense attraction, and why love at first sight can sometimes signal an unconscious relational pattern rather than compatibility.
• 38:08 - Are Narcissistic Relationships Always Abusive?: A nuanced distinction between imbalance, unhappiness, control, and abuse - with attention on specific behaviours, effects, and whether the relationship works for the people in it.
• 42:27 - The Therapist's Role in Restoring Reality: Why a therapist must help a client rebuild their own sense of self without simply becoming the new authority who tells them what is true.
• 44:37 - Dating Again: Red Flags and Trauma Bonds: Intermittent reinforcement, unpredictability, hypervigilance, and the difference between feeling anxious because of your attachment history and responding to an anxiety-provoking dynamic.
• 50:00 - Do You Need to Stay Single While You Heal?: Why there is no blanket answer: time alone can help, but a secure relationship can also provide lived experience of consistency, care, and repair when therapy continues.
• 52:39 - Can People With Narcissistic Traits Change?: Rjurik closes with hope and accountability: these patterns are learned and can be unlearned, but change requires desire, willingness, and sustained work.
• 56:26 - Closing: Laura and Rjurik reflect on the tragedy beneath both narcissistic and codependent patterns - and the possibility of intimacy, agency, and a different way of relating.

• 00:00 - Nobody Is a Narcissist: Traits, Not Labels

[00:00] Rjurik: Nobody is a narcissist. We are humans with traits. There is a tendency, when we're under threat, for all of us to become a little more self-centred. People who speak very harshly about narcissism have often been through relationships with someone who had strong narcissistic traits. They've been deeply hurt and haven't yet managed to heal or put the experience into perspective. They're still in that hurt, damaged state, and the harshness can function as a defence against that pain.

• 00:24 - Meet Rjurik Davidson

[00:24] Laura: Today, we're joined by Rjurik Davidson, an integrative psychotherapist with an interest in personality disorders, difficult relationships, institutional abuse, and men's mental health. You're listening to The Right Therapist, where we demystify therapy. We'd like to begin by acknowledging the Traditional Custodians of the land on which we live and work. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. Welcome, Rjurik.

[00:56] Rjurik: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

• 00:58 - Is the Word 'Narcissist' Overused?

[00:58] Laura: Narcissism is a word that I feel like is used a lot. I see it a lot online. I hear it a lot in conversations. Do you think this is a word that is overused? And also, what would you say is the difference between someone who's a bit of a jerk and someone who is a narcissist or has narcissistic traits?

[01:20] Rjurik: Yes, narcissism is overused in our society, along with many psychotherapeutic terms that have moved into wider social conversation. There is a lot of misinformation, so I would encourage people to be careful about what they see on social media. What is the difference between someone who's simply being a jerk and someone with strong narcissistic traits? A person with narcissistic traits has a need to be special or superior. If you look at the DSM traits, three features are sometimes described as the three Es: lack of empathy, entitlement, and exploitation. Exploitation often grows out of entitlement. But we're all somewhere on a spectrum. I prefer not to reduce people to 'narcissists'; I would rather talk about humans who have certain traits.

Narcissistic traits include the need to be special and the need for love, care, and concern to flow towards the person. That can appear in different ways. The classic grandiose style says, 'Look at me. Aren't I amazing? Aren't I brilliant? Everybody focus on me.' A more vulnerable or victim style says, 'Poor me. Hasn't the world been terrible to me? Isn't it unfair?' People higher on the narcissism spectrum tend to lean towards one style or the other, but the focus remainson them. Because it's a spectrum, all of us fall somewhere on it. You can imagine a two-sided scale: narcissistic traits on one side and codependent traits on the other. People with codependent traits are givers. Their stance is, 'Don't look at me. Let me look at you.

Let me give you love, care, and concern,' often with an implicit hope that some of that care will be returned. We all move up and down this spectrum depending on context. People can also have narcissistic defences that become visible mainly when they feel threatened. Under threat, a person may become entitled, critical, devaluing, or mean.

[04:40] Laura: Doesn't necessarily mean you're a narcissist,

• 04:43 - Narcissistic Defences and the Spectrum

[04:43] Rjurik: Right.

[04:43] Laura: If you do that in certain situations, yeah.

[04:46] Rjurik:
Yeah. I'm saying that nobody simply is a narcissist; we are human beings with traits, and those traits can move to the foreground or recede depending on the situation. Under threat, almost anyone becomes more self-focused. Physical danger is an obvious example: many people will think first about their own survival, while others - including parents protecting children - may sacrifice themselves. The behaviour depends on context. That's why I prefer to speak about narcissistic, codependent, or borderline traits rather than reducing a whole person to a label.

[06:10] Laura: Using a phrase like 'the narcissist' reduces a person to one characteristic or behaviour. People are never just one thing. As you say, someone may behave in a strongly narcissistic way in a particular situation because that context is eliciting the response.

[06:42] Rjurik: Right.

[06:42] Laura: Yeah.

[06:43] Rjurik: Yes. Another way to think about this is as narcissistic defences. We become defensive when we feel under threat, and all of us do this to some degree. Imagine that you and I are walking through a jungle with a group of people and a tiger appears on the path. Most people will become more self-focused because survival takes priority. Some may push others forward and back away. Others may sacrifice themselves - a parent, for example, may be more likely to protect their child. The point is that threat tends to make most of us more self-centred. Behaviour is contextual, and we all share some of these traits and move along the spectrum. That's why I talk about people with narcissistic traits and people with codependent traits. There can also be overlap with other personality patterns.

Someone with borderline traits, for example, may be more concerned with abandonment than with being special, even though some behaviours can look similar.

• 07:51 - Why We Judge Narcissism So Harshly

[07:51] Laura: We tend, I feel like we judge narcissism or narcissistic traits very harshly. Do you have a theory on why that

[07:58] Rjurik: Yeah, I do. Notice what happens when we call somebody a 'narc': they're bad and we're good. In that moment, we're expressing devaluation and othering. Technically, we might call it splitting - dividing people into all good and all bad - and projecting our own badness onto the other person. Those are traits we would also associate with narcissism. There is an understandable reason people do this. Many have been through relationships with someone who had strong narcissistic traits and have been deeply hurt. They haven't yet healed or put the experience into perspective, so they're still in that hurt, damaged state. The black-and-white view can protect them from pain: the other person did the bad thing, I played no role, and I am entirely the victim.

That position can itself contain a small narcissistic element, even when the underlying hurt is very real.

[09:19] Laura: That makes sense. When I think about relationships in which I've been badly hurt, I can see that I completely blamed the other person. There were things for which they were absolutely responsible, but with deeper understanding I've been able to see more of the relationship itself: why they behaved as they did, how I responded, and the dynamic between us. I'm not suggesting that anyone in an abusive relationship should soften towards, forgive, or excuse the person hurting them. But it makes sense that, after being hurt, we want to push the whole experience away and say, 'That was all bad, it was entirely their fault, and I was the victim.' That may be largely true, but I think there can eventually be another, softer place to reach as well.

[10:32] Rjurik: Right?

[10:33] Laura: But I think there's another place you can get to that's softer as well.

• 10:38 - The Narcissism-Codependency Dynamic

[10:38] Rjurik: Yeah. We do need to distinguish the power relationships involved. In a relationship shaped by strong narcissistic traits, the imbalance is often visible in the direction of care: love, concern, and affection flow towards one partner and away from the other. The other partner is often more codependent - a giver. These are traits, not fixed essences, and it can be useful for that person to explore how much they give in the hope of receiving care in return. People with narcissistic traits often pair with someone who has a roughly corresponding level of codependent traits. It can work like a mirror: if one person needs a certain amount of attention and care, the other is prepared to provide about that amount.

[12:01] Laura: It's like a dysfunctional but complementary match.

[12:05] Rjurik: Exactly. If one person needs a certain flow of care and the other gives that amount, the system balances. If the mismatch is too large, the relationship may not hold together. The result is a structured system in which one person gives and the other takes. The person on the codependent side may be kinder and more vulnerable to being abused; the person on the narcissistic side may be more likely to become abusive. We can still make moral and ethical judgements about behaviour. When we are talking about intimate partner violence, for example, we have to say clearly that it is not right. At the same time, we can understand that these traits exist on spectrums. We need to hold both softness and principle: compassion for human complexity and clarity about how people must be treated.

• 13:32 - Healthy Give-and-Take vs a One-Way Flow

[13:32] Laura: So in any relationship, there's give and take between partners. What defines a narcissistic relationship over a relationship where maybe one person is just giving a bit more.

[13:47] Rjurik: The difference is whether the flow can change. In a healthy relationship, if you become sick and need care, your partner can look after you; when they become sick, the roles can reverse. Over years, one person's career may take priority for a time, and later the other's may. The couple negotiates that flow from a basic position of balance. In a rigid narcissistic-codependent relationship, the flow is structured in one direction. That creates an imbalance, and the person with less power may try to get their needs met indirectly because open, healthy dialogue doesn't feel available. Clients can feel ashamed of things they did in that struggle. They may not have behaved as they would choose to now, but they were trying to meet needs inside a system that did not allow them to ask directly.

That contributes to the confusion these relationships create.

• 15:34 - Gaslighting, Confusion and Self-Abandonment

[15:34] Laura: What makes narcissistic relationships so confusing?

[15:38] Rjurik: There are several reasons. Someone with high levels of narcissistic traits may need to be right, react badly to criticism, dismiss the other person, turn the criticism back on them, or gaslight them. That's a difficult combination to live with because your reality cannot easily coexist with theirs. To preserve the relationship, you may begin giving up your reality, your boundaries, your needs, and your connection with your own emotions. If someone is manipulative, abusive, or devaluing, staying connected to your feelings hurts. To sustain the relationship, you may begin to disconnect and dissociate. Then questions emerge: What's real? What am I actually feeling? Why doesn't this feel right? You start deferring to the other person's version of events even when it conflicts with your inner experience.

That disconnection becomes an abandonment of self, and your sense of who you are can begin to disintegrate.

[17:40] Laura: It makes me think that if my partner's version of events has to be the truth, while what I feel and know inside is different, I have to give up my own reality to maintain the relationship. If I hold on to what I believe happened, the other person may not tolerate it and the relationship could go into crisis. Is that it?

[18:14] Rjurik: It will certainly provoke a crisis and a defensive reaction. The classic response is: 'It's not me, it's you. Look what you made me do.' When clients arrive in my office after this kind of relationship, they are often profoundly confused. They may not be able to explain what happened or form a coherent narrative. A classic question is, 'Maybe I'm the narcissist. Maybe I'm the abuser. Maybe I'm the problem.' Their sense of self and their connection with their own emotions have been eroded. Some are still in the relationship; others have just left, although leaving can become an in-and-out process because the structure is difficult to break. Therapy begins moving towards psychological health, but that changes the existing dynamic.

When someone starts setting boundaries, asking for their needs, or saying, 'That's not my reality; that doesn't feel right to me,' people around them have to adjust. Psychologically healthy people can recognise that the relationship is changing. Where power and control are central, the response is often an attempt to force the person back into the old pattern.

[20:50] Laura: So a narcissistic relationship requires a power imbalance and a level of control, and it requires someone who's more codependent giving love and attention and affirmation to someone with the narcissistic traits,

[21:09] Rjurik: Yeah

[21:10] Laura: And it requires a self-abandonment of our own understanding of reality and who we are and what's happening and what's right? What does recovery from this look like?

• 21:25 - Recovery Means Reclaiming the Self

[21:25] Rjurik: The answer is contained in your description: recovery means reclaiming the self. I think of therapy as a process of coming back to who you really are. Many difficulties are shaped by self-abandonment and disconnection from emotions: I'mnot allowed to be angry, sad, or happy, so I cut those parts off. In this kind of relationship, your sense of self may have dissolved. The central work is to rebuild it, beginning with connection to your inner experience: What is true for me? Imagine someone says, 'You're an idiot. You always do stupid things.' With a stronger sense of self, you check inside and recognise that the generalisation doesn't align with your experience. You may feel pain because the comment is cruel, then anger because a boundary has been crossed. Healthy anger can become assertiveness.

You might say, 'That hurt, and it doesn't match my experience of who I am.' That apparently simple response depends on several capacities: staying connected to emotion without being overwhelmed, interpreting what the emotion communicates, and using it to stand up for yourself. Rebuilding that circuit is core recovery work, and it is not a one-session fix.

[24:27] Laura: You're describing essentially an emotionally healthy response to a devaluing comment

[24:34] Rjurik: Right. I'm using it as an example of the work that may be necessary after, or even during, a difficult relationship. When you're still inside the dynamic, it can be hard to suddenly say, 'That's not my experience,' because you've become used to accepting the other person's version: 'Yes, I am an idiot.' If you've disconnected from emotion, you also lose access to the information emotions provide. Recovery is about restoring that connection and being able to respond differently.

• 25:18 - When Empathy Becomes Self-Abandonment

[25:18] Laura: It makes me think of times when I've heard a devaluing comment, felt the hurt and anger, and then performed mental gymnastics to understand the person who said it. I move straight into empathy and almost spiritually bypass or devalue my own reaction. That's a very codependent

[25:49] Rjurik: It is, yeah. That would be

[25:50] Laura: A way of getting around what I know is an appropriate response. I choose empathy and bypass my own system.

[26:02] Rjurik: Right. Empathy is not a bad destination, but it needs to sit inside the boundaries of a healthy response. When someone says something critical or devaluing, we may not be able to assess immediately whether it is factually true. We don'twant to retreat into an intellectual debate and dissociate from what we're feeling. We can ask, 'If this is true, why do I feel so hurt or angry?' In difficult relationships, people often feel they must produce the perfect answer immediately. They don't. You can say, 'I don't yet have an answer to that accusation, but it doesn't feel right to me. Something else seems to be happening here.' You do not need every answer. You need to remain true to what your inner experience is telling you rather than ignoring it.

[27:58] Laura: That feels important. In a relationship with someone who has strong narcissistic traits, it can feel as if you need an airtight argument before you are allowed to disagree with their version of reality. There may be no room simply to say, 'I didn't like that, and I don't think it is quite right.'

• 28:29 - Stepping Out of the Power Struggle

[28:29] Rjurik: Exactly. These dynamics often look like power struggles, but the struggle repeatedly resolves in one direction. In couples counselling, the argument may appear to be about what was said or what the dog did, yet underneath it is about who gets to define reality, whose needs are met, and who gets to decide. If the answer always favours one person, that points back to the narcissistic-codependent structure. Feeling that you must answer every accusation buys into the struggle. You can step out and say, 'That's not my experience. I'm not going to play a game about who is perfectly right or wrong. That simply isn't true for me.' A short statement can be more powerful than another detailed argument about the facts.

[29:59] Laura: As you said that, I felt how powerful it is: 'No, that's not true for me.' It refuses the rule that I must be 100 per cent certain before I can challenge someone else's version of reality. I don't have to prove everything; I can recognise that it doesn't feel right.

[30:19] Rjurik: Yeah

[30:19] Laura: You can just say doesn't feel right.

[30:22] Rjurik: Exactly. You do not have to be perfect. The dynamic sets up a game of perfection, truth, and intellectual superiority. But we're all flawed. You're allowed to be confused or wrong, and you're allowed to have feelings. You can simply say, 'That doesn't feel right for me.'

• 30:46 - Perfectionism, Shame and Insecure Love

[30:46] Laura: Is there a connection between narcissism and perfectionism?

[30:50] Rjurik: The higher someone is on the narcissism spectrum, the stronger the need to be right, central, and perfect. Perfection is one way to command attention, and our culture - especially social media - can encourage the performance of a perfect life. Imperfection can trigger deep shame in someone with strong narcissistic traits. One way to understand the origin is insecure or conditional love in childhood. All of us experience some degree of insecurity, which is why this remains a spectrum. But someone higher on it may have had to manufacture their own sense of specialness and perform to prove their worth. Criticism then threatens that structure: if they are imperfect, perhaps they are not special after all, and the shame underneath becomes exposed.

• 32:41 - How Childhood Attachment Shapes Adult Patterns

[32:41] Laura: Can you say a little more about what insecure love might look like in childhood or in parenting?

[32:49] Rjurik: Inadequate mirroring is one example. Children have a need for attachment to their caregivers and a need to express their authentic selves. At first they cry, laugh, and express themselves freely. Through a responsive relationship, a parent helps them regulate and meets both physical and emotional needs. If a child cries and nobody comes, that can feel like abandonment. If the response is overwhelming or abusive - 'Shut up' or 'Boys don't cry' - the child may fear being overwhelmed. When forced to choose between attachment and authenticity, a child has to preserve attachment. They may give up parts of themselves and decide the problem must be their fault, because recognising that the caregiver is unsafe or unavailable is terrifying. That is one way shame develops.

The child may then respond by proving their own specialness, or by working for love. A parent may praise only a performance - 'Look how good they are at music' - while failing to recognise the whole person. The child learns that certain achievements are lovable, but their authentic self is not fully seen.

[35:51] Laura: Not who they are as a person.

[35:52] Rjurik: Right. The codependent response can be: 'I have to work for this love.

[36:00] Laura: And I've got to abandon myself and make them right and me wrong in order to get the love.

• 36:04 - Why Codependence Can Feel Like Chemistry

[36:04] Rjurik: That's why someone with codependent traits may be more vulnerable to these relationships. They're used to working for love and giving in the hope of receiving love back. When another person arrives, those unconscious patterns can connect and feel like powerful chemistry or instant attraction.

[36:33] Laura: Sparks?

[36:34] Rjurik: Chemistry. Love at first sight. That intensity can be a major warning sign.

[36:45] Laura: Run.

[36:45] Rjurik: Yeah

[36:46] Laura: There's a quote that you know the message from the narcissistic parent to their child is, which perpetuates the narcissism, is don't be who you are, be who I want you to be.

[37:02] Rjurik: Exactly.

[37:03] Laura: So that child receives the message: Ah, who I am is not good enough. Who I am, in essence, I better be some things, and that is how I'll get love. Would you agree? Yeah

[37:16] Rjurik: Absolutely. A child may learn that certain things are valued - music, for example - and be asked to perform for everyone. The lesson becomes: if I perform and excel, I receive attention. Love becomes linked with specialness and perfection rather than with being known as a whole person.

[37:44] Laura: Like specialness.

[37:46] Rjurik: Right. I can't

[37:46] Laura: Really be loved for who I am, but I can be special at this.

[37:49] Rjurik: Exactly. In order to receive love, I have to be special or the smartest. The child may be shown off, but who they really are remains unrecognised.

• 38:08 - Are Narcissistic Relationships Always Abusive?

[38:08] Laura: What you've explained makes the pattern clear. One person is accustomed to working for love and giving to the other; the person with stronger narcissistic traits expects love to flow towards them rather than in both directions. We can all recognise some codependent and narcissistic traits in ourselves because it is a spectrum. But when the dynamic becomes rigid and includes a power imbalance, does that always mean the relationship is abusive?

[39:23] Rjurik: Depends on your definition of abuse, but no.

[39:25] Laura: Okay

[39:26] Rjurik: Not necessarily. At a lower level, one person may be more of a caretaker and the other more accustomed to receiving. The relationship may feel one-sided or unfair without open control or explicit devaluation. Rather than relying only on the loaded term 'abuse', I often prefer to examine the behaviours and their effects: How rigid is the pattern? Is someone unhappy? Does this arrangement work for them? A client may decide the relationship is imperfect but acceptable because other needs are met elsewhere and there are legitimate reasons for compromise. It is not the therapist's role to impose a judgement. Therapists also have to be aware of their own histories. A client's story can evoke memories and invite the therapist to provide certainty or relax boundaries.

We must remain organised enough internally to use our responses for the client's benefit rather than bringing our unresolved material into the room.

• 42:27 - The Therapist's Role in Restoring Reality

[42:27] Laura: I imagine someone who's either in or coming out of a narcissistic relationship that, with their sense of self so shaken, they may come to the therapist and want the therapist to tell them what their reality is, what they should do, what is right and wrong. That they may, yeah

[42:49] Rjurik: Yeah.

[42:49] Laura: And understandably, really come wanting answers and direction. And okay, that person wasn't the right person to tell me what my reality is, but maybe you are.

[42:59] Rjurik: That's exactly right, and it creates a fine line for therapists. A client whose sense of self has eroded may ask, 'Maybe I'm the narcissist,' and look to the therapist for certainty. They may also have behaved in ways they regret while trying to survive the relationship. Our task is not simply to hand them a new external reality, but to help them recover the capacity to know and evaluate their own experience.

[43:22] Laura: They're in a toxic relationship. Yeah, so it comes with the territory.

[43:25] Rjurik: It does. In a power struggle, people may try to meet needs in unhealthy ways and later feel ashamed of their own behaviour. When a client asks, 'Am I the narcissist?', one response is to ask, 'How would you know?' That begins returning authority to the client and helps them form a sense of self. At times I may also explain that this question is common among people whose reality has been repeatedly undermined. People with very strong narcissistic traits are less commonly the clients asking it, because their defensive position is more often, 'It wasn't me; it was them. I'm fine and the world is the problem.' There can, of course, be overlap among narcissistic traits and other personality patterns, including borderline traits.

• 44:37 - Dating Again: Red Flags and Trauma Bonds

[44:37] Laura: I'm really curious about for anyone who has been in an abusive, narcissistic relationship and is now out of it and is thinking about dating? I think a big question they might have is: How do I not go through this again? How do I be really discerning in my choice? What do I look for? Do I know how do I not recreate this in my next relationship? How do I not choose someone like this again?

[45:07] Rjurik: It's a very valid question. Therapy can help rebuild a sense of self, connection with inner experience, and the ability to set boundaries. That makes red flags easier to notice, including intermittent reinforcement - unpredictable shifts between care and withdrawal. This is one mechanism that creates trauma bonds, similar to the variable rewards used by poker machines. If a reward comes every time, you learn the pattern; if it stops completely, you eventually stop trying. But when rewards arrive unpredictably, you keep pulling the lever because the next attempt might pay off. In dating, that can look like someone disappearing, returning with intense affection, then disappearing again. The uncertainty creates hypervigilance. As you heal, psychoeducation and self-awareness help you recognise the pattern instead of interpreting it as love.

[47:50] Laura: Would that sound like: 'I'm anxious because I don't know when I'll hear from this person or what I'll get from them'? Many people locate that entirely inside themselves - 'I'm anxiously attached; something is wrong with me' - rather than asking whether the dynamic itself is anxiety-provoking and whether it is what they want in a relationship.

[48:15] Rjurik: Exactly. The first step is staying connected with the anxiety and asking what it is communicating. Is the level of arousal appropriate to the situation? If someone is genuinely unpredictable, anxiety may be an accurate response rather than evidence that something is wrong with you. You can name your need: 'When I send a message and don't hear back, I feel anxious. I don't need an immediate reply every time, but I do need more consistency.' Over time, something deeper can shift: you become less attracted to unpredictability. A more securely attached response might be, 'That's odd; they haven't replied. I'll continue with my life.' When they return, the inconsistency feels unattractive rather than intoxicating. Your unconscious world is responding differently.

[49:41] Laura: An ick, actually, that you didn't text me back. Rather than

[49:43] Rjurik: Right, yeah.

[49:44] Laura: Oh my god, I must really like this person because they didn't text me back, and I'm anxious.

[49:49] Rjurik: Right. So your inner unconscious world is responding differently, and so that's a sign that you've moved up that spectrum towards the ideal zero.

• 50:00 - Do You Need to Stay Single While You Heal?

[50:00] Laura: Would you, and I'm asking you to make a blanket statement. I know it's more nuanced than this. Would you advise someone who's just come out of a narcissistic, abusive relationship just have a bit of time by themselves and do therapy before getting into another relationship, ideally?

[50:15] Rjurik: The difficulty is that we learn to be good in relationships by being in relationships. We've focused on romantic partners, but similar dynamics can occur with parents or friends. With each client, I would explore what is useful and leave the final decision with them. Time alone can help someone understand how they entered the pattern. I've also seen clients move directly into healthier relationships while continuing therapy. They began to appreciate someone psychologically secure whom they might previously have found less exciting. A healthy partner does not systematically push attachment wounds and insecurities. Through consistent replies, care, and concern, the person gains lived experience of a different relationship.

So there are good arguments for space, and good arguments for healing in a secure relationship; it has to be decided case by case.

[52:29] Laura: Is there anything else that you have wanted to say on this in this limited amount of time that I haven't elicited from you or hasn't come up?

• 52:39 - Can People With Narcissistic Traits Change?

[52:39] Rjurik: Yes. It goes back to our opening point about pathologising. People are not simply born as fixed categories; these patterns are learned, which means they can also be unlearned. Research suggests that even people diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder can respond to cues of care, love, and concern with greater softness. That indicates the possibility of change. Leaving aside a very small group with severe psychopathic or sociopathic traits, I want to call people back to their humanity. Change is possible, but the person has to want it. That is true for both narcissistic and codependent patterns. There has to be desire, willingness, and sustained effort. We learned these ways of surviving, and we can learn new ways.

[54:04] Laura: We develop these patterns in response to childhood wounds. People with narcissistic traits adapted to their wounds too, right?

[54:17] Rjurik: Right.

[54:18] Laura: That's why they have these traits. It makes sense that with willingness and therapy and work, that they can heal some of those early wounds and have more choice about how they're going to go forward.

[54:34] Rjurik: Yeah

[54:35] Laura: Actually, it's quite tragic, isn't it?

[54:37] Rjurik: It is tragic. People with strong cluster B traits can live in a landscape of fear, even when it is deeply buried and invisible on the surface. Having to be perfect all the time is a terrible way to live. Someone high on the narcissism spectrum may leave a trail of destruction in relationships and never know genuine intimacy or a reciprocal flow of love and care. Always needing to remain on the pedestal is profoundly limiting. It makes me want to say, 'You don't need to be perfect; it is going to be okay.' The codependent pattern creates a different trail of wreckage, often inside the self. That person may live with enormous suffering from repeatedly abandoning their own needs. Both patterns deserve humanity and accountability.

• 56:26 - Closing

[56:26] Laura: Thank you so much for this conversation.

[56:29] Rjurik: Thank you for having me. It's been a total pleasure, and hopefully people will get something from it.

[56:38] Laura: If this conversation resonated with you, hit subscribe and click the link below to download the Source app. It's free to get started and helps you find a therapist who truly fits - faster.